I don't think you are doing anything wrong but it looks like CT doesn't cover Turkey, at least at the moment.

You may want to head on over to CrazyGuyOnABike which is a treasure trove of biker's journals with a great search tool that you can use to see where other people have toured in Turkey. I believe the approach to Istanbul is something that needs a lot of research. Often, gpx files are available to download too. 

Given your title I offer the advice that you should familiarise yourself with a few route planners before you depart and become comfortable with how they interact with your Garmin.

I love CT, trust it more than any other planner out there but it doesn't do everything and it doesn't do all things well. In strange parts of the world with different languages and letters things can get tricky. Or you my simply lack an internet signal.

Osmand has been my backup planner/navigator for years. A wonderfully, useful tool (ironically not so much for route planning on a bike) it can store Points of Interest, calculate elevation and in a pinch plot a route  - all offline. If your Garmin has bluetooth you can even send that route to your unit. If it doesn't you can use a cable.

By the way, if I really wanted to get to understand the CT/Garmin relationship I'd do that at home on roads and in places that I already know. That way I can get an feeling for what CT (or any other planner) is going to do for me. 

Good Luck!

Thanks for the reply HobbesOnTour, really appreciate you taking the time.

I've been having a look at osmand, can't quite get my head round it at the moment - is it a matter of tapping individual points on the map, or will it pick a route to a location for you? I've tried CT for this locally and it was excellent, although I had to ask komoot to find me a return route as CT didn't appear to want to!

I tried the ride using my phone, which was fine, although obviously used battery quite heavily. I was thinking about using the phone for my trip, I take it you'd recommend a Garmin instead? Any advice welcome, apart from a lejog done before satnav was common I've not done any long tours, and this will be my first abroad!

Many thanks 

No problem.

Osmand is not the easiest thing to get a handle on - I've been using it for years and am still learning - but I have found it worth the effort. I bet if you go on to YouTube there will be some explanatory videos. It's not just a navigator or planner. It can actually be a poor planner, especially if you don like rough stuff. It's real value is its offline functionality and Points of Interest.

You can use it by tapping on the map or by searching an address or other point of interest. 

I don'know why CT wouldn't calculate a return trip - it's not clear to me if you are using the app or the webpage on your phone or PC - or if you mean returning by a different route. If the latter, adding a via point between your location and the destination (or home in this case) and then moving that waypoint should give you an alternative return route. When CT doesn't vary the route there's normally a good reason. :-)

As for a Garmin? Unfortunately the world is divided between the two big players in the market and each have different models that do different things and do the same things in different ways.

I strongly suggest a standalone GPS unit, not necesssarily Garmin, for a variety of reasons. A crash and you could lose your only way to call for help. A phone is prominent and attractive to thieves. Trying to use or even read a phone in extreme weather can be a nightmare. Battery life is an issue. Charging on the go is possible but those sockets are not designed to deal with the vibrations that a bike can generate. 

As for which one, I always offer the advice to have a good think about what *you* want and how *you* would like to use it - if I use mine in different ways to you my reccommendation isn't worth anything. 

For example, I'm not too worried about having detailed maps. I have excellent maps on my phone. I do want my unit to communicate with my phone, though. I don't want my unit to reroute me if I go off course (I go off course a lot!) I don't need turn by turn directions although I've recently started to use them because CT allows me to write notes to myself that pop up as an instruction. I use these to remind myself where there might be water, or a store or a camping option close by. Or the start / end of a climb. 

I rarely use the unit itself to plot a route (even though it can) because often the processing power of the unit means a simple, direct route. I'll use CT or Osmand or ocassionally another app. Komoot, in my experience is not to be trusted in less populated areas - although I have no experience in Turkey.

It's worth remembering that a bike gps is not like a car gps and that a bike gps works best when paired with a good planner. A hugely important point for me is to record my rides, upload them to Strava (RWGPS & Komoot allow the same) and I can add all my photos of the day at the touch of a few buttons. I now have a wonderful memory of my day's ride. And eventually, my tour. It's also a backup of my photos just in case. You can write notes and comments too. Family and friends can see it too with a free subscription. You can find me on Strava under HobbesOnTour.

Since this is the CT forum and fo CT stuff you may find it helpful to have a look at a couple of other fora. Presuming youŕe in the UK there's CycleChat and the Cycling UK forum. You'll get a wider response from more people, no doubt some who have done what you are planning to do. Similarly, I can't reccommend CrazyGuyOnABike enough (but stay away from its forums unless you like vitriolic politics) for info but more importantly inspiration.

Very best of luck

Thanks once again for all your good advice. I've been having another go at CT and I think the return route issue was operator error! I often think technology is beyond me, but as you and others have suggested, 'have a go', the sense of satisfaction when it works is great! 

Thanks for the thoughts about GPS, I've already been on cycling uk and I think the consensus there echoes your thoughts, I was just wondering about trying to save on costs, but I think in the long run it will make for a much more enjoyable journey, especially when maps/passing English speakers may not be readily available.

I've not got a computer, don't generally seem to need one, but I've found a Garmin unit that should talk to the phone whilst on tour, so as you say with battery life and other aspects this will be the way I go.

 Very much appreciate the time you've taken on this.

As Hobbes says, cycle.travel doesn’t include Turkey yet, but on reflection I think adding the ‘European’ bit (i.e. Thracia) would be a really good idea – cycling to Istanbul is a popular ride. I’ll have a look at including it and at any peculiarities of routing in Turkey!

@Wilf

"I often think technology is beyond me, but as you and others have suggested, 'have a go'"

This really is the way to go and the best way to learn. Try as many things as you can think of. In as many different kinds of places as you can - from cities to wide open spaces.

"I've found a Garmin unit that should talk to the phone whilst on tour"

The key word is "should". Differences between IOS and Android aside, there are different ages of operating system and sometimes updates for the unit to "fix" one thing that breaks another. A unit that only communicates with a phone online is less valuable to me than one that will do it offline. 

Be wary of answers in the online world!

And this....

"I think adding the ‘European’ bit (i.e. Thracia) would be a really good idea –"

Is why CT is so good! :-)

Hi Richard, thanks for the update, I'm not leaving until the daffodils are out so no rush! What an amazing route planning weapon this is though! I tried it again today, put in a route I'm familiar with, but the site sent me round some even quieter roads I'd not previously thought of. Confidence in using it is increasing, I've realised where to tap the map to make sure I go in the right direction; if I go for junctions I often get it wrong, obviously because I'm a phone only person and 'fat fingers'. All easy to work around though. 

I'll look forward to development in Thracia. Thanks again.

Thanks Hobbes, a timely reminder - I was considering the 1030+ and the 1040; wiggle have the former for £350, but I think the 1040 has some sound updates, not least improved battery life. It's more money (actually 1.5 times what my bike cost!!) but my local bike shop will discount it to considerably less than wiggle, and I do like supporting independents... I'll make sure it'll answer as you suggest before I part with any money.

Would I be right in thinking CT would provide a similar route to the cicerone guide? I'd assume so as they both have the same user in mind.

Thanks again for your advice.

Wilf, I've been perusing your thread on the CUK forum and since I don't post there I'll add my tuppence here.

I detect two main priorities for you:

Firstly, you only have a phone (no computer at all) and I think that has been underestimated in all the advice you have received. 

(I'd discourage you from using tech savvy people to do what you want on their computers because you'll learn less that way)

Yes, most units can do "normal" day to day activities using a phone. But issues may arise for non "normal" activities such as updating or downloading maps etc. Only those you have done what you plan to do can elaborate on that.

Secondly, you seem to be expecting the unit to plot your daily route - that's not something I'd recommend. Most units have pretty basic processing power and tend to give direct routes, not especially interesting routes especially in places that are lacking bike infrastructure.

Your latest enquiry had to do with updating maps and that is definitely something to be considered, especially in relation to only using a phone. 

To throw the cat amongst the pigeons, there are a line of units designed specifically to operate with a phone - Wahoo. A computer is not needed - for anything. Maps can be downloaded or updated once your phone has a WiFi signal (but only a "normal" signal. It can't be done where the provider requires a voucher code such as Starbuck's). However, the maps are less detailed than the typical Garmin ones (I don't need street names) so far more maps can be accommodated on the unit. 

As with all these units there are pros and cons and my pro could well be your con. This is where some forethought is useful. 

However, whatever unit and planning app you decide to use the most important factor (for me) is confidence in both. That only comes with experience. And to get experience we need to practice. You don't want to postpone the purchase of a unit and set off unfamiliar with it.

Don't forget, your route will take you through some of the best cycling infrastructure in Europe (easy for any GPS / planning app) but then into areas where infrastructure is far less. Far better to acquire the skills now (and not need them) than to try things out in foreign parts. 

Finally, there's no need to be stressed by all this. There is no "wrong" unit. Some are better for particular functionality than others but there is nearly always a workaround. After a few days on the road you'll most likely wonder what inspired so much angst :-)

P.S. Since you seem to favour the Cicerone guides I'd suggest sitting down with CT and plotting the route by hand. If CT varies from the written route then you can have a choice to be made on the day after taking note of the differences. Perhaps make use of the "route description" function to record the differences. Or check out CGOAB and see which option speaks to you most. It may seem like a  mundane, boring task - complicated by doing it "backwards" - but clicking on Street view, where available should fire up the imagination. 

PPS You also mentioned considering the use of a tablet. I've been planning routes daily on the road for three years using my (android) phone even though I had a tablet for a while. While bigger than the phone, I preferred the phone for the familiarity it offered. Of course, the tablet offered other advantages - a backup of my Osmand maps and an easy way back in to online accounts when my phone was misplaced. 

Good luck!

(Like HobbesOnTour, I've even contributed to Wilf's thread on CUK forum but no longer participate there so, here:)

My Garmin periodically pops-up a "Update"  message with "Install Now" and "Remind Me" buttons - no laptop involved but might be going through my phone. But it's a recent model (1040 Solar) so I can't say if all Garmin's range do the same (but my 1030 also did).

I tend to tour for a couple of month trips and never update anything shortly before or during a tour (neither phone nor GPS). I depart with things working and software updates can introduce bugs or remove or change features so there is a risk that your working system suddenly stops working. Stick with what is already working.

I have a very strong sentiment against Wahoo. My 1st ever tour started out with a Wahoo and after a few weeks it was a disaster and I had to buy whatever the local shops had to get something working. First their infrastructure failed (so unable to download routes), then device disaster and wouldn't navigate properly (I did a personal website review with photos showing failures) but wont post links here (maybe inappropriate as not cycle.travel related). I did get a full refund from store with a "told you so" from them.

Re: OSMAnd (mentioned above)

I extensively tried it a few years ago mainly for the on-phone routing capability. I regard myself as fairly techy (having been a communications & mobile software developer all my career) yet I found it difficult to use.

But there were issues with the app route creation in that if the route being created was too long (and a decent day ride could be "too long") the app would just lock-up. It was reproducible and the developer's web site recognised the issue in their FAQs/documentation and the answer was to split the route into several shorter routes (which is messy and your shorter routes are limiting the overall route). How bad this issue is depends on the phone, memory, etc. (I was using it on an iPhone). So I gave-up on it as the on-Garmin device routing was working well for route creation when no internet available.

Psmathe's comments are a timely reminder of the potential perils of depending too much on anecdotal evidence on the interwebs. 

The "is a computer necessary?" question can vary from model to model and if vital, as in this case, needs to be nailed down. 

Similarly, I can match their negative sentiments against Wahoo with positive ones. My experience of Wahoo as a product and their service) is poles apart from theirs. For the record, I used an Element, then a Roam on a three year, COVID interrupted jaunt from The US to Ecuador plotting routes daily. I would recommend in a heartbeat for anyone without a computer and no desire for highly detailed maps.

I do have strong sentiments against Garmin based on the purchase of a unit (and incredibly poor customer service) several years ago. However, time moves on, the product is no longer available (although the name is) and I don't think it appropriate to bash an outdated product. 

Ironically, as someone not in the least tech savvy I have managed to make Osmand work for me. 

Once I left México (and the comfort of CT) Osmand was my daily planner. 

Yes, longish bike routes can be time consuming or even impossible depending on the number of options but I rarely recommend it as a primary planner - always as a back up. 

In places with minimal bike infrastructure (Think Türkiye) a simple solution is to choose car navigation, suitably modified to exclude motorways etc. 

The sheer amount of detail held in maps (POIs etc.) plus the ability to add my own makes it invaluable in the offline world. In hilly areas the elevation profile can be very, very useful. It integrates with other apps such as iOverlander (another one that works offline) and BookingdotCom.

The different ways of setting it up (car, bike etc.) can be used to display a "big picture" showing different services (POIs) easily and clearly. 

While there's a steep learning curve it is also a cheap way for someone to get into the world of GPS on a bike. It is a great learning tool. 

Finally, I'll reiterate the point that pretty much all units that have the capability can plot routes themselves easily enough in places that have bike infrastructure. The issues arise when bike infrastructure is absent and regular infrastructure is ...... Interesting. It's in those cases that being familiar with a backup can be most helpful. 

I fear all this waffle may be distracting to the OP and if so I offer my apologies but perhaps later, with more GPS experience under their belt it will make more sense. 

Finding a route planner I could trust (CT) and pairing it with a dependable unit was a significant factor in giving me the confidence to spread my wings and explore more widely. I think everyone should get to do that! :-)

Sorry for the late reply to the last, both, but I really appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts. 

I'm still dithering over the whole business, ridiculous really how much angst it can produce! But I am becoming more confident with CT, and as I mentioned in the other forum might just go with the phone. I've time for plenty more testing before I go so will also look at the wahoo roam as well - Hobbes your lengthy tour and phone-only recommendation speaks to me.

I've got maps of the proposed countries as well, not cycle scale but light enough and a decent backup and planning tool.

I'll also follow your advice and do some route planning in longhand, which should give me a better idea of how long it'll take; I've got a ferry out booked, and a flight home, I've gone for pricier flight which means I can amend if needs be.

Thanks again, there's no one definitive answer to this but the experience of others is really helpful.

Wilf, a couple of thoughts.

While CT is great and my preferred planner, it is not 100% infallible and sometimes there are better options for a specific task. Especially in places far from home. My advice would be to become familiar with other options too.

There are a number of downsides to only using a phone, but for me it comes down to two things - power consumption and emergencies.

I use my phone for taking photos (& notes). I'd hate to have to choose between navigating and taking photos on tour (not to mention the hassle of removing the phone from a mount for every shot). I'm a firm believer in leaving the stress behind and the idea of cycling through a particularly beautiful place and being anxious about my battery would be horrible. 

Similarly, after a crash the vulnerability of a phone mounted on the bars means I might well be lacking a phone when I need one the most.

The other issues have to do with vulnerability to theft, poor functioning in some weather and potential damage to charging ports if charging on the move.

One of the greatest things my unit has given me is a record of each day's ride with the ability to add photos at the touch of a button (on Wifi!) and comments if I want (Strava. Other options are available). More battery drain for a phone. That alone, is worth the cost of the unit to me - and mine cost more than my bike! :-)

Look, whatever option you go with, remember that people travelled the world on bikes long before there were mobile phones and the internet. Your "Touring Head" will kick in, you'll get better at choosing routes and learn from experience. When it comes to gps I'm a big advocate of having a really good think about what *you* want and how *you* want things to work before looking at units. Then it's a matter of matching the unit to your needs.   

Oh, paper maps are great. Stopped for a coffee or a bite to eat, there's something about a cyclist with an open map that draws people over for a conversation! 

I agree with the comment  about  paper maps. When  we cycled  for 3 months  across  Europe my husband  carried almost 4lbs. of maps! 

Thanks again Hobbes, good to know someone else is making a cheaper bike work! I'll make sure it's tip top of course before I set off, at the moment I'm hacking around mud covered local roads and anywhere tough so that I can see what breaks!

Just out of interest, I have planned my route roughly according to what I think will work, on both CT and komoot. What I cannot understand is that on CT the route comes to exactly 3000 miles, and on komoot it's 1881! The CT map legend says it's in miles, don't suppose this might be km? I appreciate that the sites may differ in terms of what routes they are delivering for the cyclist, but I can't imagine komoot dumping one on a motorway! A quick zoom in does not throw up anything too horrid looking.Any light you could shed on this would be most welcome.

Wilf, 

"What I cannot understand is that on CT the route comes to exactly 3000 miles, and on komoot it's 1881"

You'll need to put up a link to the CT route. Simply open the route on your phone, highlight the url, copy it and paste that url here. (Make sure the route isn't labelled as private - glasses as opposed to sunglasses). 3000 miles is the very, very scenic route. :-)

On a phone it is quite easy to accidentally move a viapoint (or end point). Practise makes perfect.

As for Komoot not putting you on a motorway? :-)))) I love your innocence!

My biggest problems with Komoot were in places with minimal biking infrastructure. It's algorithim seems to be less conservative that CT's and that results in riskier, more direct options. Your route through most of western Europe will be easy for any planner - there is so much choice - the issue will be the further east you go. I wouldn't touch Komoot with a bargepole in Turkey. 

I think (again!) you may be overthinking this. By the time you run out of well organised, signed and well serviced bike routes you'll be the king of the road! Decision making on which way to go, which road to take, what to see and avoid should be second nature by then. I could not imagine creating a 2000km international route at home and then following it slavishly for however many weeks or months. The freedom of a bike (especially if you have a tent) is not to be underestimated.

If I was in your shoes I wouldn't be worrying about what gpx track to use but what places I wanted to see and visit. 

Then (and only then) would I worry about linking them up.

CGOAB and whatever other sources of info you can find will help with that.

Inspiration over anxiety!

Good luck!

Ha! You're right, I am overthinking this. Driving my wife mad as well as myself! Think I will just plan the first three days, book some accommodation and then wing it. On previous long walking and cycle trips I've generally met people and had route advice as I go. 

I wasn't really intending to plan and follow the whole thing, it was just interesting that there was such variance between the tools. I take your point about komoot in the east, although the site seems happy to download the eurovelo 13, so that could be a good option should I get that far...

After all, it's my first foreign tour, not wedded to too much, if it's taking an age I'll happily finish early and finish it another time. I'm taking a tent, and do travel pretty light, so overnight options. Best thing would be getting under way tomorrow! Less chance to keep worrying.

Thanks for your time though, I'll certainly keep you posted on my progress/lack of!

I'd still like to see that 3000 mile route :-)

It's easy for me to suggest winging it but that doesn't suit everybody. And I rarely wing it without some background preparation or the tools to locate accommodation/food/water etc on the fly. And I've built up a fair understanding of the tools I use. I normally carry a kindle containing a bunch of random notes and options.

I'll stress again that you will find the situation different as you go east. Reading (or video watching) about Türkiye and its approaches, making notes about what routes are more, or less, to your tastes will be a useful base of knowledge when you actually arrive there. Remember, language issues can impact on your understanding of local knowledge.

Whatever about keeping me updated, keeping a record for yourself is something I highly recommend. Days can blur together, photos can be hard to pin to a day or location (Google is great for that) and the little details that keep us ticking along don't get lost. CycleChat has a Travelogue section I recommend.

Best of luck!

Hi Hobbes, I planned the route in stages initially, but this is what comes back if doing it all at once. Comes in at 2850 miles, but that's without Thracia (which Richard is aiming to do) so just over the 3. 

I've read lots of travellers accounts of their trips, and seen some great video footage. I imagine there'll be a few tough times, from previous trips I know it can get lonely sometimes, but also a quiet satisfaction once I'm played in.

I always keep a trip diary, which I'll back up with pictures, more important than ever on a long one like this. 

Hopefully I've posted the link below.

https://cycle.travel/map?from=Hook%20of%20Holland&to=Edirne&fromLL=51.9771615,4.1314526&toLL=41.6759327,26.5587225

Thanks!

That looks like 2861 km to me! 

The great thing about such a long journey is the great variety it can throw up. You're getting to ride some of the best bits of the Rhine & Danube. Vienna is one of the greatest places I visited on a bike. 

Loads of information at least until Bratislava, a little scarcer after that but relatively well worn options. 

Loneliness can be a factor on a long trip. I've found that a solo cyclist can be more approachable. Stopped, with a map out, is a great way to attract attention. One of the most important things to pack is a smile. People respond to a smile. 

Have a great trip!

Ha! Once again my technical inexpertise comes to the fore! Just assumed it was miles due to the bit in the top right hand corner. I will bow to your superior knowledge. Actually it gives me even more confidence with CT, the whole mapping question was my biggest bugbear of the planning, but I'm pretty happy with it now. 

Back in the day I did a little wander around Nepal and India and the like, it'll be good to recapture some of that adventurous spirit!

Thanks Hobbes